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At least now I know why it never worked, thanks James.
The point about VF now pushing their SIM only plans, is very pertinent, and should really be sorted sharpish.
If it wasnt for O2's slow network I would be back in a flash
i presume the useragent picks which style sheer to render it with, you would expect it to
default to some lowest common platform if none present - rather than nothing at all.
but i HATE operator portals anyway, they kinda work as book marks
but i dont want endless flirt sites pushed in my face thanks.
book mark:
http://m.traintimes.org.uk/wimbledon/london instead
or
http://m.traintimes.org.uk/wim/wat
for short :)
do you buy music from an operator portal?
Shame, doubt I'll be heading back to VF Live! anytime soon...
At least 3UK are starting to listen to this issue, and are now starting to roll out support for their 3UK-specific apps (Skype, WLM) on non-3UK supplied phones...
Why don't operators?
But now mix in an additional dimension: that of third-party content. What are the chances of that working (via Vodafone's transcoder, for example), if the first-party content is so screwed?
Whither an carrier-arbitrated mobile web if this is really as smart as pipes get?
However, I was the Production Manager for Vodafone live in the UK for two years, and Product Manager for Portals at Vodafone Group for a similar length. So I speak with some knowledge.
Theses comments haven't been checked, approved, censored or filtered by anyone at Vodafone. If you buy or sell shares based on my ramblings, you're a fool :-)
There are several reasons why non-ranged phones like the N86 don't work with live.
Firstly, Vodafone UK don't stock the phone. Sounds like a minor problem but it presents them with all sorts of challenges. Not least buying the (unsubsidised) device. Then another one with updated firmware (have to keep the old firmware to test that with new features).
Then there's testing. Every extra device and firmware variation slows down the testing and acceptance time for any new feature or release.
We still support the Sharp GX-10 - the very first live phone from about 6 years ago. True, it doesn't support mobile TV, but all the services that it can support need to be tested on it for the frightening amount of customers who can't/won't upgrade.
So, as you point out, why not just assume the N86 is basically the same as the N85?
Well, what's the difference between the N95 (original firmware) and the N96? Surely they can't be that different...?
As you know, they are. That presents us with all sorts of rendering challenges - what resolution do images have to be in order to stay readable? Can the device handle this bit of CSS, that bit of JavaScript?
Take a look at this list of Webkit "support" on mobile. http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/10... Similar handsets yield wildly different results.
Then, there's content delivery.
Does the N86 support a higher bit-rate for music than the N85? Or do we serve up a low quality file we know will work but sounds rubbish?
What's the screen resolution? Do we send a wallpaper that's too big or too small?
Do games and application work on it? They've been rigorously tested on the N85 - so will they work on the N86? Sure?
In all those cases, you've got an angry customer ringing up demanding a refund. That costs Vodafone money.
So, should we show links to the games, music, apps etc? Or should we remove them? Or should we show them, but on download present a warning that what you've bought may not work and there are no refunds if we don't support your phone?
Do we create a "generic" version of the portal? If so - do we make it lowest common denominator? Well, that's what you're seeing. A text only page that should be viewable by all. Except the N86 obviously has an issue rendering it...
Or, do we stick up a banner saying "Why not pop along to a Vodafone store and buy a compatible handset"?
As you can see, there are a myriad of issues Vodafone would have to deal with. Our latest corporate report will tell you how many million mobile internet customers we have. Is it worth our shareholders' money to support a few dozen* N86s ported over from Orange? (*I have no idea how many are on the Vodafone UK network.)
Yes, an N86 customer may buy some content - but enough to make it worth our while? They may choose to get a compatible phone next time - or they may decide to import a Chinese no-name iPhone rip-off with a lousy browser and kick up a fuss when it doesn't work.
However, were taking a different approach with the replacement for live, Vodafone My Web - http://www.vodafone.com/myweb - we're allowing practically any phone to access it. As you pointed out yesterday, it's still buggy on the N86 - and for many of the same reasons. That's why we're not automatically redirecting all traffic to the site - yet.
Here's a good test - see how many different makes and models of phones access http://thereallymobileproject.com - now buy and test all of them to ensure you get a good & consistent experience on everything from an unreleased smartphone to a GX-10.
In fact, I can guarantee that even on a relatively simple site like yours, there will be rendering bug/quirks on some of the handsets you have about your person. However, no one is going to ring you up demanding a refund if something goes wrong with TRMP.
Device compatibility is hard - products like WURFL & DeviceAtlas make some problems go away, but ultimately, it's a difficult problem that can't be solved without a massive time & money investment.
Could Vodafone live handle it better? Undoubtedly. That's why we're moving to My Web.
Much like your McDonald's manager, My Web will support non-ranged handsets. It will also support non-Vodafone customers. So if you're, say, a T-Orang3 customer with a Casio 5173i - you'll be able to use our services.
T
(Written on a turbulent train, so please excuse any typos!)
I, for one, understand the pressures you're under here :-)
But that bottom right image makes no sense. As you say, carrier portals are highly complex... but they are also precisely specified and well designed.
Unless there's a document somewhere that says:
"Requirement 4.7.11: Our homepage must look like a cryptic re-encoded URL for anyone that doesn't have a precisely on-range device"
...then I would say it's a bug.
If it didn't occur to anyone to see what the page looked like on other high-end devices (and let's be honest: that would have been strange, as non-portfolio devices often correspond to high-revenue, influential users), the unfortunate conclusion is that this behaviour is either a) by design, or b) short of some basic extra QA.
Falling back to any sort of simple XHTML experience would have been something. Now you don't have 'an angry customer ringing up demanding a refund', but 'a bemused professional user writing incredulous blog posts, read by thousands'.
At some point the C/B analysis crosses the same threshold.
Anyway, looking forward to the 360 philosophy. That sounds, to some extent, more enlightened ;-)
No, it shouldn't look like that. As you can see from the train times images - it should be getting a basic version which we can ensure works on every phone. So, yes, the front page for N86 should be filed under "bugs".
This is the first time in 6 years, to my knowledge, that C/B have crossed over.
T
(My opinions are my own and not those of any corporate behemoth)
And if the real answer is "we don't support non-vodafone handsets" why not make that clear to the SIM-only customers who are told they can bring their own handsets... or present that message to the user when they try to access the portal.
I can see why making every service available to every handset is not a worthwhile commercial activity, but if non-operators can manage even a fall-back to a crude text-based service with a bare-minimum spec (which is what we do) then I suspect Vodafone can muster at least that.
I'm sure it's not malicious - just the propositions people creating products that the technology doesn't support. I look forward to the 'better way' of Voda 360, but if it wasn't a reasonable expectation of Vodafone Live, what's changed now?
(but thanks for commenting - do appreciate the benefit of your views on this)
However, I would agree that there needs to be a better "text-only" version of live.
Regarding implementing it. Without going in to all our internal structures - Vodafone live runs in UK, France, Germany, South Africa, Romania, Austria, Netherlands and a dozen other countries. I'm not saying that running a mobile portal is like dealing with the United Nations, but making changes can be "complex".
Vodafone My Web is a completely new product specifically designed to work with as many handsets as possible.
T
(This is all my opinion and not that of any FTSE listed company)
Mippin don't have any issues supporting every handset, perhaps Vodafone's acquisitions team should have a whip-round?
It's only a matter of time before he gets cast as Bond.
As I've said - I'd like to see a better basic version. But without being able to sell content through it, there's little incentive to do so.
T
(These comments are my preciouseses - no one else's)
Um.. is that a Really Mobile exclusive?!
:D
(that's kind of awesome btw)
That must be why Vodafone's Nokia firmware updates take so long (or never arrive).
However I only have one answer to one of your questions. Which is:
"So, should we show links to the games, music, apps etc? Or should we remove them? Or should we show them, but on download present a warning that what you've bought may not work and there are no refunds if we don't support your phone?"
Yes. You should.
"We don't recognise your handset as a Vodafone Live! handset, we think the best service is X but cannot guarantee it will work 100%. If you'd like to talk to Vodafone about upgrading to a Vodafone Live! handset we do support, please call 08700 700 191 from your handset or click here to carry on."
Give the user the choice, offer to up-sell them AND include a call to action.
Surely this is a better option than just having the service bork everytime I need to check my trains?
Hopefully Vodafone 360 will change this issue as I am a Vodafone customer too
I can certainly appreciate the disappointment and frustration here and while both the Web Relations and eForum Teams are always happy to help our customers with pretty much any query there will always be limitations to what we can do in some cases.
In regard to the N86 and other phone not ranged by us Terence provides some great insight into some of the challenges we face with supporting any device on the market in conjunction with our services.
Hopefully once all the great new features which come under Vodafone 360 have been launched later this year you’ll then begin to enjoy better functionality with your phone on our network.
Thanks,
Lee
Web Relations Team
Vodafone UK
I definitely cant fault the service you personally provided me during all the issues I had with credit checks etc when signing up but what about data settings for SIM only customers?
When I enquired how I obtain these for an N82 I was simple told that the N82 was not supported by Vodafone and to look at the forums. After searching around I found the GPRS settings but am still experiencing issues with MMS and its got to the stage where I simply cant be bothered anymore which means lost revenues for Vodafone.
Vodafone should have a serious look at O2's SIM Only offering. The online billing was smooth and easily understood but most importantly everytime I put my SIM card in a new handset the WAP, mobile web and MMS settings were pushed to me straight away...
Ed
Thanks again for the kind comments. It's always nice to read appreciative words about the work of the Web Relations Team.
The eForum is great place where customers can go to for help with a whole range of technical queries and while the assistance the guys on there may sometimes be limited when dealing with phones which we don't range they are always willing to help in anyway they can.
As I don't know whether you're aware but there is some information on the eForum which takes customers through the set up processes for WAP and Internet settings however we naturally can't guarantee the same experience on all phones.
As I wasn't aware that you were having problems with MMS service I'll pick this up and come back to you once I've taken a look at closer look at things.
We always aim to provide value for money and our price plan offerings are always being reviewed to ensure they're competitive. While we don't push settings to phones at the point the SIM is inserted all of our phone do come pre-configured for WAP, Internet and MMS.
All the best.
Lee
Web Relations Team
Vodafone UK
I just thought I'd come back to correct something in my last post.
Earlier this year Vodafone did embark on a project whereby Over The Air (OTA) settings were sent automatically to a customer for Vodafone Live! and MMS after they had put their SIM in a new phone.
Of course, this would only work in the event that we had OTA settings for the phone which mainly covers phones we're currently stocking and have previously stocked.
Thanks,
Lee
Web Relations Team
Vodafone UK
I'm looking forward to VF360, much.
It's a pleasure as always.
Be sure to let us know what you think about Vodafone 360 once it's been launched.
All the best.
Lee
Web Relations Team
Vodafone UK
and guess what, Vodafone Austria gave me the same lame Excuses, so i jumped Ship to T-Mob few Months ago (well, the "device not on stock, so see how you get along with it yourself"-problem was one of the smaller ones).. not really a big fan of Vodafone anymore
I pay Vodafone a *shed* ton of cash every month to use their network, surely I - as the paying consumer - should be able to use whichever handset I choose.
Good luck though. Looks like Voda's CSR are observing. Keep up the pressure!